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Living in Revelation

Elder David A. Bednar Member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
January 31, 2023 11:15 AM

President Kusch. Brothers and sisters, good morning. It is a pleasure to welcome you today to this very special devotional on another day never to be forgotten at Ensign College. We welcome those who are seated at the Assembly Hall at Temple Square and those who may be watching via the livestream or who may be watching later after the broadcast. We recognize and extend a very special welcome to Elder David A. Bednaar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Elder Bednar, we are very honored to have you with us today. Sister Susan Bednar is unable to be with us and we miss her. I would also like to recognize my wife Linda who is with us this morning and I am always happy and grateful to have her by my side. We want you to know that our devotional speaker next week will be brother Zac Marshall who is a member of our interior design faculty.

We will begin our devotional this morning by singing hymn no. 243, “Let Us All Press On.” Sister Ximena Estrada, a student from the state of Mexico will direct the music and Zak Edstrom who is a student from Salt Lake City will be at the organ and we thank them today for their service. Following the opening hymn, Sharon Altamirano, a student from Oaxaca Mexico, will offer the invocation.

Song. “Let Us All Press On.”

Prayer. Sharon Altamirano.

President Kusch. Thank you Sharon. Brothers and sisters, it is a rare occasion when we can be taught by a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. As you can see, our devotional format is going to be a little different today. Elder Bednar will not be giving a formal prepared message. Rather we will be having a conversation amongst Sister Kusch and me and Elder Bednar. When we conclude, the benediction will be offered by Benjamin Rothler, a student from Zurich, Switzerland. Following the benediction, we would ask that you remain in your places while we leave the stage.

In keeping with our devotional tradition and engaged learning at the college, lets show that we have come prepared today to be taught by the spirit. Thank you very much.

So Elder Bednar, you and I first met on the 18th of March, 2002, in Rexburg, Idaho, in my final interview for a faculty position at BYU Idaho. And that was the beginning of what we consider a cherished friendship and service over the years with you and sister Bednar that now spands over two decades which is hard to believe. That first interview as you described it was going to be a conversation amongst friends and that is what we are going to do today. As we were reviewing this too, we think this is the first time you had an official assignment to come to Ensign College to speak during your ministry as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve so I think that makes your visit today rather historic.

Elder Bednar. I think they finally trust me to come and not make a mess.

President Kusch. Well, truly our relationship with you has been a cherished experience. So you left comfortable circumstances in Arkansas and a great position at the University of Arkansas to respond to the call of a Prophet to go to Rexburg, Idaho, to preside over Rick’s College at the time. That meant change for you. Linda and I had the opportunity to leave Northern California and also go to Rexburg, Idaho, and it meant change for us too. Would you just teach us about change. You led a historic transition from Rick’s College to BYU Idaho. People had to learn to change. You had to help people understand change. We’ve had a little bit of experience about changing things here at Ensign College too. So what would you teach us about change.

Elder Bednar. I’m assuming that most or all of you are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and if you don’t like change, I recommend you join another church. I’m not trying to be silly or sarcastic. We are to come unto the Savior, we are to follow Him and we are to be born again. We are to experience the mighty change of heart. Repentance is change. Learning and education produces change. The essence of our mortal experience is to not remain the same. Often times people will say, “ah, just leave me alone. I like things the way things are.” Well God doesn’t like the way things are in us. I’m not saying that in a negative way. It’s not that he’s unhappy but we are not here in this mortal existence to just stay the same. So we are blessed with remarkable spiritual gifts. The restoration of the Gospel teaches us our eternal purpose and destiny and you don’t achieve that destiny by just hunkering down and staying the same. The natural man and the natural woman hate change. The man and woman of Christ learn to love change and the lessons that are learned in the process. So I think that is one of the fundamental aspects of overcoming the natural man and the natural woman is not resisting change but embracing change and learning from it.

Sister Kusch. So can I ask? I’m just really interested. By the time I met Sister Bednar, she had been in Rexburg for a period of time. When the opportunity came for you, how did she feel about it and how did she learn to love going someplace where she had never lived.

Elder Bednar. Well I won’t take a long time but there is a little bit of a back story. If Susan were here, she would tell you that one of the hopes that she had for many years is that when I finished my graduate work we would end up in the west. Well, we were in the mid-west in Arkansas. She had a desire to live closer to her family so that her children would know their grandparents. And so she prayed for that. Didn’t demand, didn’t insist. But she just prayed that we would be closer to her parents and her family. Twenty years later, the prayer was answered in the invitation to come to Rexburg, Idaho. So that aspect of it was very exciting. We were well embedded in the community in Fayetteville and we loved it there. So leaving was challenging and very hard. I had never been to Rexburg. I had never been to Rick’s college. I didn’t know one thing about it. So I said, let’s go. And we just learned as we got there. For Susan, it was coming back closer to home and she was thrilled about that.

President Kusch. We’ve come to appreciate change too as we left California for Idaho and Idaho for Mexico and Mexico back to Idaho and Idaho to Salt Lake City. We wouldn’t change the opportunity for change for anything in the world. It has been a real blessing for us. So you didn’t know anything about Rexburg before you got there.

Elder Bednar. No. In fact I was interviewed by Elder Eyring and Elder Perry and they said, “Brother Bednar, what would you do. What would be some of your major objectives if you became the president of Rick’s College.” And I said, “I have no idea. I’ve never been there. I don’t know one thing about it. I think it would be very presumptuous to say, here is what I would do. So I would have to find out what is going on before I could answer your question.”

President Kusch. Are you sure that was the right answer?

Elder Bednar. I said, “This is over. I’m not going anyplace with this.”

President Kusch. And you were willing to leave something very significant there too, the situation you had there at the University. And was that hard or was it just part of the consecrated lives of David and Susan Bednar.

Elder Bednar. The answer is. I’ll give a couple of words to describe it but not in any particular order. It was absolutely energizing. Now I know enough about the higher world of education that I never wanted to be the president of a university. I never wanted to be a dean. I never wanted to do any of that stuff which was my only qualification to do it. Anybody who wants to be a dean by definition is unqualified. Anybody who aspires to be a university president I don’t think would be a very good one. So the only qualification that I had was it came out of nowhere. I knew nothing about the school and I didn’t really want to do it but how do you tell President Hinckley “no.”

I know this is being streamed and I’ll regret saying this but when Elder Eyring called me about coming to Salt Lake for the interview, I was thinking, have you ever had something happen in a moment but it seems like a really long time. I’m listening to him invite me to come for the interview and I am going, how do I tell him no. I don’t want to do this. How do you tell a member of the Quorum of the Twelve “no.” And so he says, “and we need you here in the next couple of days.’ And I am going, “sure.” And that was it.

So, it was demanding. I wouldn’t say it was hard. It was demanding. And I remember with Betty Oldum who was my secretary at the time. Just before the public announcement was made, the executive team was getting ready for the next day. She said, “President Bednar, are you scared?” And I said, “If I thought we had to do this transition, I would be terrified. But this is a part of the church educational system. The Lord is in charge of this and knowing that we have His help, I’m a little apprehensive but no, I am not scared.” So it was demanding, energizing, it wasn’t scary, but you clearly wondered, have we got what it takes to pull this off because this has never been done before.

President Kusch. Well clearly you did. The Lord was with you every step of the way.

Elder Bednar. Well, and the other thing is that it was a remarkable example of counseling in counsel. You may remember those crazy meetings where we had all of the various leaders from the entire campus, academic and non-academic. We would go into the Taylor building in that one large classroom and the president’s counsel would simply say “We don’t know how to do this but we think the first two steps are this.” So then what happens to all these other departments on campus if we do these two things. And these were pretty wild and crazy conversations. And we would come back two weeks later and we just kept doing that for months. And it is inaccurate to give any person or group of persons credit for what took place. The vast majority, almost every person on that campus was anxiously engaged in seeking inspiration to know how to do that. That’s why it worked.

Sister Kusch. I remember you teaching about light and being able to take a few steps into the darkness and just see the sun barely coming or in the fog and that had to have been what it was like. We can see enough into the future to say if we do this, we think it will work and then we can move on and move on.

Elder Bednar. Sometimes people will say, “Well this person has the gift of discernment and they can see through walls. Or they can see around corners.” Well part of the way you see around a corner is you keep moving your feet. It’s not like you are superman or superwoman with x-ray vision and you can just see through the wall. As you keep your feet moving, each time you take a step, your view around the wall is expanded. and that’s how the whole transition of Rick’s college to BYU Idaho occurred. Line upon line, from time to time, precept upon precept.

Sister Kusch. What an important message for all of us. That is the way we should be living our lives, relying upon the Lord and keeping our feet moving and asking and continuing to move.

Elder Bednar. If you’ll take Come Follow Me, and that instructional material in the church. I’ve been a member of the Quorum of the Twelve for eighteen and a half years and people think, “Oh I’m sure glad President Nelson can cook that up when he became President of the church.” That has been in process for years. There have been few occasions in the time that I have served that we haven’t been focused on those kinds of issues and they are developed and they mature and they are refined line upon line, precept upon precept.

President Kusch. I think that is a great way to transition into some more discussion on personal revelation. Really, we know that the church is run in an inspired way through revelation that comes to prophets, seers and revelators. But maybe we can talk a little about personal revelation. There is always the question of, “Well if have this thought, is it me, is it the Holy Ghost, is it the Lord, is it just a thought? Should I follow it? How do I know? What should I do?”

Elder Bednar. Okay. Are you all buckled up? Here we go. I’m not going to suggest that there is one answer to this. There are lots of different ways to think about the answer to this question. Let me suggest a way that maybe you have not thought about.

In the culture of the church or language of the church, we seem to put a primary focus on gearing up and preparing to receive revelation when it comes. And that is accurate. But you are living in it. Instead of thinking about, “Oh every once in a while I have to get spiritually supercharged so that I am sure to recognize it.” “That we may always have his spirit to be with us.” If you are a good girl. If you are a good boy. You don’t have to be perfect. But if you are honoring your covenants and pressing forward with faith in the Savior, then you are living in revelation. It doesn’t just come once in a while. And the vast majority of the time you are being influenced by the Holy Ghost and you have no idea that it is happening. We have the expectation that we have to be consciously aware in the moment that we are receiving revelation and that is not true. In fact, I would suggest much revelation is occurring as we are simply pressing forward, being good and trying to get better with God’s help.

The 80th section of the Doctrine and Covenants is a revelation to somebody named Steven Burnett. And it is not very long. Have you ever wondered why there are revelations like this one to Steven Burnett in the Doctrine and Covenants. Who cares about Steven Burnett. It’s a mission call. He receives his call, is given a companion and then the Lord says, “Go to the north. Go to the south. Go to the east. Go to the west. It mattereth not unto me.” The Lord is not saying, “I don’t care where you go.” He is saying, “Get going. Move your feet.” In essence, I think the Lord is suggesting, “I’m going to get you where you need to be without violating your agency. But you’ve got to be moving for that to happen.” I think too many times we pray and we sit there and we wait for something to happen which means nothing is going to happen. When we act in faith, when we ask in faith, and when we say amen, we get to work on the thing that we have been praying about and we are guided in ways that most of the time we don’t even recognize. Now that may sound bizzare to you and we won’t take the time to describe it but I ask President and sister Kusch, “Did you ever think you would end up in Rexburg, Idaho?” Did you think you would ever end up in Salt Lake City as the president of the LDS Business College when it would become Ensign College. They would say you’re nuts to even suggest that.

I still write books about management stuff and career planning and it’s all baloney. If you are a member of the church and you are trying to honor your covenants and be good and do good, God will help you be where you are supposed to be. I don’t want to sound cavalier but don’t spend too much time worrying about if this thought is from the Holy Ghost or is it me. If its inviting and enticing you to be good and do good, to keep the commandments, to follow the Savior to come unto him, of course it’s coming from Him. If it’s inviting or enticing you to do something contrary to the Gospel, or in violation of the commandments, you can know that it is coming from an unworthy source.

If you are brushing your teeth early in the morning and while you are brushing your teeth, you remember, “Oh, I didn’t pray.” Is that you or the Holy Ghost? Who cares. Just pray because it is the right thing and what you are invited and enticed to do is the right thing. Or maybe your mom, while you were growing up, would repeatedly tell you “Be sure to pray this morning before you get going.” While you are brushing your teeth and you are an adult and you have a remembrance of your mom telling you to pray on a day when you forgot to pray, was that just a thought or was that the Holy Ghost? The Holy Ghost brings all things to your remembrance. Doesn’t it make sense that the Holy Ghost would bring back a memory of your angel mother telling you and teaching you and reminding you to pray instead of sending Moroni. That makes sense to me.

So be good and go. You’re living in revelation. It shouldn’t be the rare event. Did that make any sense. Now if you are not being good, you can’t be perfect so don’t stress about that. But if you are not being good, you cannot have that confidence that you are going to be guided. If there is something in your life presently that inhibits the Holy Ghost from guiding you, then repent and do it soon and do whatever you need to do so that you can again wax strong in the presence of God, that his spirt can be your constant companion and you can have the assurance that you are going to get where you need to be so you can do what you need to do.

Last comment on this and then you can follow up in any way you want. Most of your answers won’t be what you want when you want. People pray and it’s like they are shopping in the store. “Heavenly Father, I need this, and this, and this and this and deliver it by this time.” And if you don’t get this and this and this and this by the right time, then God wasn’t listening to my prayers. Yes, he was. You are not listening to the answers. Don’t expect him just to provide a delivery service. You don’t pray to tell God what you want or what you need. You pray to find out what God wants for you. Big difference. That will change what you pray forever. And many times what he wants for us, because it involves change in what we are and what we do, is not something we readily want to hear or accept. That’s one of the ways you know it is coming from heaven. If all of your answers are exactly what you want, you’re giving yourself some of those answers. He is not interested in making our lives hard. To become what we are destined to become as his sons and daughters doesn’t come by staying the same and it doesn’t come by not having to deal with some demanding and difficult things.

President Kusch. Thank you. That makes perfect sense.

Elder Bednar. Not perfect.

President Kusch. Well almost perfect sense.

Elder Bednar. Okay (laughing).

President Kusch. So covenants we make in this life help us along the path that God wants us to become. I would like to read a quote from your April, 2022, General Conference address, “But We Heeded Him Not”, where you teach about covenants and covenant making. You said, “Living and loving covenant commitments creates a connection with the Lord that is deeply personal and spiritually powerful. As we honor the conditions of sacred covenants and ordinances, we gradually and incrementally are drawn closer to him and experience the impact of his divinity and living reality in our lives. Jesus then becomes much more than the central character in scripture stories. His example and teachings influence our every desire, thought and action.” Now when you taught that in conference, I think that statement was referring to all of the covenants we make. But I wonder if you might comment about how what you taught relates specifically to temple covenants and how temple covenants bind us to God?

Elder Bednar. First of all, do you remember when President Nelson said we shouldn’t speak of the atonement and disconnect it from the Savior. The atonement is not a stand alone thing. Sometimes people will say that the atonement did this for me. No, the atonement didn’t do anything for you. Christ did. It’s the atonement of Jesus Christ. I would suggest we need to do precisely the same thing when we talk about covenants and ordinances. Covenants don’t do anything. Neither do the ordinances. It is how they connect us to the Father and His plan and His Son and His infinite eternal atoning sacrifice.

I use the word connection simply because I don’t like the word relationship in connection with the Godhead. The only way any of us can ever understand the relationship is in human terms. I have a relationship with you over years. I have a relationship with my wife. That’s helpful. I’m not suggesting that is wrong. We are connected by covenant with the Father and the Son. We become children of the covenant. The Savior says, “Come unto me all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I shall give you rest for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” The invitation to come unto him. How do you do that in a very practical way? How do you come unto him?

We exercise our moral agency to learn about his teachings and His doctrine. To accept the ordinances and covenants of His gospel. And I would suggest that in that process of coming to understand the covenants and ordinances, that’s how we receive the yoke of Christ. Whenever Enoch was called to his holy responsibility, he was absolutely overwhelmed, blown away in the language of today. “I’m but a lad, slow of speech, the people hate me.” And the response by the Lord is, “If you abide in me, I will abide in you. Therefore, walk with me.” Now, the covenant path that takes us to the presence of the Father and the Son has a sequence. First, we are baptized and confirmed. You can think of that as an ordinance of adoption into the family of the Father and the Son. As we continue to press forward, don’t make a clean little dividing line. This is this and this is this. It’s not that simple. But that’s where we begin to press forward on the covenant path. You might think about that promise to Enoch, “Therefore walk with me.” Temple covenants allow us to come unto him and walk with him. Because through the covenants that we enter into in the temple, we in essence, as it is described in the Book of Mormon, gives our whole sole unto Him. It’s the ultimate outcome of the mighty change of heart. We have no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually. To turn out. What is the natural man and natural woman focused on? Me, self-centered and selfish. What is the man or woman of Christ as they go through this transformation by the power of the Holy Ghost through the covenants and the ordinances. They turn out to love, bless and serve other people. So we are in the yoke as we are baptized and accept those first covenants. But think of being yoked and now walking with him. That to me is a glorious image of knowing that we are never alone. We have the companionship of the Holy Ghost but we are also yoked to and with the resurrected and the living Christ, by covenant.

President Kusch. Thank you. There is a question that Linda and I have been asked often and I know that it is a question that you have been asked often. I was asked it regularly as a stake president. I was asked it regularly as a mission president and it’s the balance question. And how do I balance everything I have to go and do in life? How do I manage school? How do I manage work? How do I manage a relationship? How do I find someone to have a relationship with? How do I do all this, keep my covenants, magnify a calling in my ward and how do I do it all?

Elder Bednar. You’re going to think my answer to almost everything is quit worrying about it. Balance is bogus. There is no such thing. You are gong to pursue this outcome that can never be achieved. There is no such thing as balance. You can only do one thing at one given moment. I’m here right now. Am I neglecting my wife? Am I neglecting my responsibilities serving in the church? You can’t do it all in the same moment.

People stress over, I’m doing this but I should be doing that. Well you are not doing either one very well. Whatever it is you are doing, do it. If you are at home, be at home. You can be at home but not be at home. Does that make sense? For example, when I was a graduate student, the demands of that in my early professional career, you can bring a lot of stuff home and you are still at the office. You are not really home. You have got to learn over time how to be where you are in the moment you are in that place. If you’re at church and you are worrying everything else, you are not really at church. You can only do one of those things at a time and many people will have way too many things they are trying to do all at the same time.

I did a social media post on this. You may have seen it. If not go look it up on Instagram. If you have ever seen acrobats, they do this trick where they get a stick and they put a plate on top of the stick and they spin it. They put one on their elbow and the plate is spinning and they put their head back and they put one on their forehead and they spin it. Have you ever seen this trick done? Do you ever have all of the plates spinning at exactly the same revolutions per minute? No, it is impossible. I would suggest that is what people are suggesting with balance. You get all of the plates spinning at exactly the same speed. You can’t. What do you have to do? You have to get to the plate that is going to fall off first because it needs a spin.

You have to spin the personal development plate, not in this order, and the service in the church plate and the family plate. I don’t know how many plates you can spin but I’m doing pretty good if I can do three or four. That’s about it. When you get to five, six, seven or eight, you are guaranteeing that you are not going to spin any of the plates and some them are going to fall down and break. You have to be real clear about what matters most and once you get clear about that, then it is a never-ending rotation among those fewer things with the highest priorities spinning the plate so that it never falls.

President Kusch. Where do we find the courage to make those choices?

Elder Bednar. When you really know what matters most, it is not hard. Elder Hales was my neighbor. Robert D. Hales. His wife just recently passed away. He was our neighbor. When he was struggling with some of his health challenges, if I were home on a Sunday, I’d go spend time with him so his wife could go teach her relief society lesson. One day I said, “Elder Hales, you were a fighter pilot, you were a great baseball player and a phenomenal golfer. You have been physically robust and active your whole life and now you can barely move.” And he had to be pushed around in a wheelchair. I said, “What have you learned going from the state of being so physically vibrant to now you are almost incapacitated.” And he looked at me and said, “David, when you can’t do what you’ve always done, then you only do what matters most.”

I hope you young people will burn that into your brain and heart. We all get caught up in doing a myriad of things that absolutely don’t matter. If you were constrained, if you were constricted, if you were inhibited and you didn’t have all of the capacities that you have now, wouldn’t you be able to clearly say, “This stuff doesn’t matter.” You don’t have to be incapacitated to get real clear vision about what matters most. So don’t wait to do that until you physically or in some other way may be limited. You can do that now and the Holy Ghost will help you. And once you do that, it is not like you do it once and its done. You are constantly refreshing and renewing your understanding of what matters most. When you do that, its just in my judgment not hard.

President Kusch. In my Come Follow Me reading this week in reading about the Savior’s experience of fasting for forty days and then being tempted by the devil, and all of those various things that he was tempted with, in every case, and I suppose this is not a surprise given who he was, but in every case he looked to God. He looked to his Father as the primary motivation as the primary thing that mattered most to him and I think that is what you are suggesting.

Elder Bednar. He knew and understood who he was. You can go to the first chapter of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price. He’s confronted by the devil and what’s his response? He has just come from an experience where he has seen Deity. He says, “I can tell the difference between you and who I was just with. I’m a son of God. I’m not doing what you are telling me.” That’s an instructive lesson about how important it is to know who we are and the covenant connection we have with the Father and the Son.

President Kusch: Thank you. Elder Bednar. It’s just about time for us to be wrapping up. I first want to tell you how much Linda and I love you. And how grateful we are for the association we have had with you and sister Bednar for a long time. We could spend just a long time reminiscing about the wonderful things we have learned from you and the experiences we have had but we are forever grateful for today and what you have taught us. We would be pleased to turn the remainder of the meeting over to you to share your thoughts as we conclude. 

Elder Bednar. Well thank you. I love both of you very much. I hope you won’t remember one thing that was said today. I’m serious. If you’ve taken notes about what’s been said, don’t use them. I hope the Holy Ghost has brought thoughts to your mind and feelings to your heart that had nothing to do with what was being said. I don’t want you to listen to me. I want you to pay attention to the thoughts that come to your mind and the feelings that come to your heart by the power of the Holy Ghost. You may have been reassured by the Holy Ghost during this time. You may have thought there is something where you are woefully deficient and maybe the Holy Ghost let you know you are better than you think. There may be an area where you are filled with pride and you’re not nearly as good as you think you are and the Holy Ghost has helped you to see that and you know that you need to repent. I hope that is what you remember and you act upon. I really hope that in some future day you can’t remember one word of what was said. But I pray you will never forget what you may have felt by the power of the Holy Ghost. You’re living in revelation.

Be a good boy. Be a good girl. Don’t’ expect the Holy Ghost to just show up periodically and you kind of have to spiritually supercharge to be ready. Just be good and go and I promise you will be guided. Not in ways that you anticipate. There will be surprises. There will be disappointments. But you can always trust in the Lord’s influence in your life and in his timing.

What I do now I do joyfully. I witness that God the Eternal Father is our Father and He lives. I witness that Jesus the Christ is His only begotten and beloved Son and I witness that He lives. The tomb is empty and He lives. I witness that the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith. I wasn’t there when that happened. I wouldn’t know any better if I had been there that it occurred. Remember that Korihor said that the only way you know is by seeing. Alma taught that faith is the substance hoped for, the evidence of things not seen which are true. I witness that all of those things are true. I witness that the restoration is ongoing. I left a meeting of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles just before I came here to be with you. I witness the restoration is ongoing. My beloved brothers and sisters, I witness that all these things are true and I invoke the simplest of blessings upon you, that you may know that the truths I have attempted to describe today that hopefully assisted you in receiving promptings from the Holy Ghost, are valid and true. They are true. They are efficacious. They will bless you in every aspect of your life now, in the future and forever. In the sacred name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.

About the Speaker

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Elder David A. Bednar

David A. Bednar was born on June 15, 1952, in Oakland, California. He served as a full-time missionary in Southern Germany and then attended Brigham Young University, where he received a bachelor’s degree and a master’s degree. He also received a doctoral degree in organizational behavior from Purdue University.

David A. Bednar married Susan Kae Robinson in the Salt Lake Temple on March 20, 1975, and they are the parents of three sons.

Prior to his call to the Quorum of the Twelve, Elder Bednar served as an Area Seventy, Area Authority Seventy, Regional Representative, twice as a stake president, and as a bishop.

After completing his education, Elder Bednar was a professor of business management at Texas Tech University and at the University of Arkansas. He then served as the president of Brigham Young University–Idaho (formerly Ricks College) from 1997-2004.
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